The Desolation of Art in the Late 20th and Early 21st Century

[Azaeroe 40]

Art which possesses neither public responsibility, nor aesthetic originality, is a very humble form of art. While for much of history, the concept of art did not yet exist, it is clear that there were works of art being produced. It may even be said that art came naturally to the rhapsodes who were later collectively referred to as Homer, when (initially) composing the lyrical interludes of the Iliad, and later making the whole poem lyrical. But these works necessarily laid emphasis on the side of themselves which were τέχνη, until the event of early Romanticism, as defined by Hamann and Herder, in opposition to Kant. It was not until Yeats' middle period that the idea of a unifying system of public responsibility (τέχνη) and aesthetic originality (art) became proper. Since the deaths of Eliot, Pound, Bunting, and others, High Modernism has been reacted against, by the humble Romanticism of gentlemen like Larkin (in England), and the Post-Modernist experiments of gentlemen like Ashbery (in America). My theory is that this is both caused by and contributing to the general downfall of our society, since verse used to, and no longer does, bother to influence society, in any meaningful manner. Until this idea has been revitalised, there may as well be no art at all, considering it simply stands as a kind of cask-monolith, pretending to do what it does not itself even understand.

[Peace Heavy mk II 7200]

yeet

[Karma’s Hat 3107]

tfw flexin on some weeb forum

[afhfbr 0]

41 minutes ago, Azaeroe said:

Art which possesses neither public responsibility, nor aesthetic originality, is a very humble form of art.

Not entirely sure what this means. These are vague, totally undefined terms. What is 'public responsibility'? What is 'aesthetic originality'? For that matter, what is 'humble' art?

 

42 minutes ago, Azaeroe said:

Art which possesses neither public responsibility, nor aesthetic originality, is a very humble form of art. It may even be said that art came naturally to the rhapsodes who were later collectively referred to as Homer, when (initially) composing the lyrical interludes of the Iliad, and later making the whole poem lyrical. 

Homer is so distant as to be more a concept that an author. How can we talk about Homer with any certainty, let alone the composition of The Iliad?

 

43 minutes ago, Azaeroe said:

 But these works necessarily laid emphasis on the side of themselves which were τέχνη, until the event of early Romanticism, as defined by Hamann and Herder, in opposition to Kant.

Not sure what techne has to do with this. Heidegger dealt with teche and although a lot of people find it tricky, it's very important in defining techne in terms of art.

44 minutes ago, Azaeroe said:

 It was not until Yeats' middle period that the idea of a unifying system of public responsibility (τέχνη) and aesthetic originality (art) became proper. 

What do you mean by Yeats' middle period? I don't get the opposition between public responsibility and aesthetic originality either, never mind public responsibility and techne (I don't see the link).

48 minutes ago, Azaeroe said:

Since the deaths of Eliot, Pound, Bunting, and others, High Modernism has been reacted against, by the humble Romanticism of gentlemen like Larkin (in England), and the Post-Modernist experiments of gentlemen like Ashbery (in America). 

Bogus opposition again. Larkin and Ashbery are both following on from modernism in many ways. I'm not sure what this has to do with the deaths of those writers, and the considerable overlap between modernism, postmodernism and romanticism is nowhere near as simple as you make out.

 

49 minutes ago, Azaeroe said:

My theory is that this is both caused by and contributing to the general downfall of our society, since verse used to, and no longer does, bother to influence society, in any meaningful manner. Until this idea has been revitalised, there may as well be no art at all, considering it simply stands as a kind of cask-monolith, pretending to do what it does not itself even understand.

Utter nonsense I'm afraid. How can you possibly connect verse and society? There are huge gaps between Homer and modernism that aren't filled in in this theory. Modernism and modernity don't exactly map onto one another and neither do postmodernism and postmodernity?  Half-baked reactionary ideas with nothing to support them other than the deadweight of their own jargon.

[Azaeroe 40]

19 minutes ago, afhfbr said:

Not sure what techne has to do with this. Heidegger dealt with teche and although a lot of people find it tricky, it's very important in defining techne in terms of art. What do you mean by Yeats' middle period? I don't get the opposition between public responsibility and aesthetic originality either, never mind public responsibility and techne. Larkin and Ashbery are both following on from modernism in many ways. I'm not sure what this has to do with the deaths of those writers, and the considerable overlap between modernism, postmodernism and romanticism is nowhere near as simple as you make out. Utter nonsense I'm afraid. How can you possibly connect verse and society? There are huge gaps between Homer and modernism that aren't filled in in this theory. Modernism and modernity don't exactly map onto one another and neither do postmodernism and postmodernity?  Half-baked reactionary ideas with nothing to support them other than the deadweight of their own jargon.

Techne means craft. Heidegger is not the only one who deals with the term. It was defined by the Greeks. It is in contrast to art, which did not exist, as a notion, until after Shakespeare. If you don't understand something about Yeats, why even bring it up? Yeats' middle period was one concerned with public responsibility in his art. Larkin was not following on from Modernism at all. He said he wanted to rescind the whole thing.

 

The fact you think art and society are unconnected suggests more about yourself than I. Do you really think that the ideals of High Modernism emerging and dying at the same time as idiosyncratic political surges was coincidental?

[afhfbr 0]

13 minutes ago, Azaeroe said:

Techne means craft. Heidegger is not the only one who deals with the term. It was defined by the Greeks. It is in contrast to art, which did not exist, as a notion, until after Shakespeare. If you don't understand something about Yeats, why even bring it up? Yeats' middle period was one concerned with public responsibility in his art. Larkin was not following on from Modernism at all. He said he wanted to rescind the whole thing.

 

The fact you think art and society are unconnected suggests more about yourself than I. Do you really think that the ideals of High Modernism emerging and dying at the same time as idiosyncratic political surges was coincidental?

I know what techne means but the way you were using the term suggested you didn't. Heidegger has a very specific way of using it that complicates the relationship between craft and art and collapses to opposition. It's very hard to talk about it in an artistic context in the light of Heidegger without referring to his idea.

 

What precisely is Yeats's middle period? The period around The Tower for example? I am actually a big admirer of Yeats but find it quite reductive to talk about him as though he suddenly picked up the notion of public responsibility (vague term but kind of obvious) when as a writer who was self-consciously engaged with the creation of a national identity, surely he was always engaged with public responsibility?

 

At which stage did I say art and society are unconnected? There is obviously a link, but specifically connecting this to a half-baked idea of verse as you did (and then backtracking by spiralling it out to talking about art in general) is rather different. The question of 'high modernism' dying is much more vexed than you would think, and modernism, postmodernism and forms that some would consider pre-modernist have overlapped and coexisted a lot too. For example, would you call Beckett a modernist or postmodernist? He started writing in the age of Joyce and ended up writing for television, and doing things that were clearly in the light of postmodernist developments, but a lot of people can see a modernist thread running throughout his work. It's nowhere near as simple as you think.

 

I have no idea what 'idiosyncratic political surges' means but assuming you're referring to Nazism and the like, I don't think those repulsive ideologies and their supporters have anything to do with debates about art. Yes, the likes of Pound had hideous politics and these were entwined with their (often not without merit) art, but fascist and Nazi politics were developed by common thugs, not artists. They've always lived in the sewer, not in books, and that's exactly where they and their fans belong.

[Azaeroe 40]

2 minutes ago, afhfbr said:

I know what techne means but the way you were using the term suggested you didn't. Heidegger has a very specific way of using it that complicates the relationship between craft and art and collapses to opposition. It's very hard to talk about it in an artistic context in the light of Heidegger without referring to his idea. What precisely is Yeats's middle period? The period around The Tower for example? I am actually a big admirer of Yeats but find it quite reductive to talk about him as though he suddenly picked up the notion of public responsibility (vague term but kind of obvious) when as a writer who was self-consciously engaged with the creation of a national identity, surely he was always engaged with public responsibility?At which stage did I say art and society are unconnected? There is obviously a link, but specifically connecting this to a half-baked idea of verse as you did (and then backtracking by spiralling it out to talking about art in general) is rather different. The question of 'high modernism' dying is much more vexed than you would think, and modernism, postmode rnism and forms that some would consider pre-modernist have overlapped and coexisted a lot too. For example, would you call Beckett a modernist or postmodernist? He started writing in the age of Joyce and ended up writing for television, and doing things that were clearly in the light of postmodernist developments, but a lot of people can see a modernist thread running throughout his work. It's nowhere near as simple as you think.

I am not talking about Heidegger here and don't know why you are bringing that philosopher in to this. Yeats had developed the idea of public responsibility, shortly before meeting with Pound in Sussex, after becoming disillusioned with his previous approaches to verse. I was always talking about art in general. This comes from my reading of Collingwood. Saying things like "It's nowhere as simple as you think." is a cop-out; tell me how complex it is, if you think you can. These terms are general, obviously.

[123Sandman321 377]

This colloquoy compels an ingestion of bang-maize.

[nekkichi 6042]

does ur AHIS class have a facebook study group that is inherently more appropriate for writing exquisitive reflections of this kind

 

 

Spoiler

 

also 

 

do you by chance live in a castle and experience ghost encounters?

 

 

[Gesu 1537]

Tbh, I have little to no idea what you just said purely because my tiny mind can't comprehend this level of articulacy, but I have exams coming up. How much would I have to pay you to disguise yourself as me and sit them for me?