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Saishu

What is up with DEG and Gazette fans?

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I don’t know if I’m opening a can of worms here, but...

 

Specifically, why they beefin’? There’s this sort of unspoken feud between both fan bases, and both sides sound ridiculous. 

 

Did I miss something?

 

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I almost wrote that I don't think this is a thing anymore if it even had been one in the first place, 

 

but then I realised that stuff like youtube comments are almost like an alternative dimension compared to this place, especially the comment sections for newer bands are rife with people bringing up the gazette and dir en grey, although not really against each other but to disparage the newer bands. I don't know man I just prefer to stay out of all of this for my general health and wellbeing.

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12 minutes ago, Seelentau said:

I must've missed it as well. The only "feud" that existed in the past was Dir en grey vs PIERROT. No clue why, though. Toshiya was their roadie after all.

Yeah, seriously. The only reason I can imagine a "feud" happening between DEG and Gazette is because DEG's previous "competition" imploded in on itself. But other than that, I didn't even realize that the Gazette became DEG's new competition. 

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Disposable nailed it, it’s the YouTube crowd. 

 

Gazette fans lose their shit whenever Gazette is compared to DEG, and the claim it’s because DEG fans are rude to them. Which, honestly, is probably the case. But then Gazette fans take the passive-aggressive approach and spam Gazette songs in comments for DEG videos. It’s just really weird. Especially considering the fans think that both bands are totally not ripping anyone else off. 

 

Also a weird but funny thing. Criticize a Gazette song and you’re met with “if you don’t like it then why comment? Gazette works hard and they don’t deserve the negativity”

 

Criticize a DEG song and you get “fuck you.”

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I didn't know about this "feud" because I just really don't read the comment section on youtube (it's a steamy pile of shit everywhere you go), but I think is because they are two major bands, well they are HUGE compared to any other VK band, so the people are like in the football (soccer for my american friends) take a side and fight back

Personally I love both bands and hate people

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I think Dir en Grey's ventures to western audiences through mainstream festivals made them reach to a different kind of audience than j-rock bands are used to have, and while they still are firmly rooted in j-music they have this "crossover appeal" that makes them somewhat popular between metalheads, another subculture known for its elitism, stubbornness and overall toxicity. I think some DeG fans tend to speak ill of The Gazette and the like because they see Gazette's music as "technically inferior", the emphasis on the visuals as something negative (which is kinda funny considering how visual DeG has been being since 2013) and the overall j-rock fans as people who have a lesser knowledge on music and its technical/theorical side and that care more about appearances than sound (there's the really intense machismo going on within the metalhead culture as well that creates this pre-conceived idea that artists who bring an intense visual aspect to their presentation as people who can't really play their instruments and stuff).

 

You can perceive that rift even between DeG fans themselves when someone complains about their change in style, say they miss the "old DeG" or simply state their preference towards their earlier, less metal-influenced stuff.

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I remember the fan rivalry all over the internet around ten years ago and then nothing. People going out of their way to tell you not to listen to the Gazette in Deg circles and whatnot. Funny stuff. This was around the time when Kyo's live performances mostly consisted of throwing shit, wearing a bucket, and bleeding, and boy did Deg fans think they were so HARDCORE because their favorite band featured an absolute madman. I'm not surprised that Gazette fans felt they were being bullied by those dinguses.

There's always been elitism with vk fans around the internet, but I guess the worst of it gravitates toward the deep circle of hell that is Youtube comments.

Edited by blacktooth

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1 hour ago, Disposable said:

[...] especially the comment sections for newer bands are rife with people bringing up the gazette and dir en grey, although not really against each other but to disparage the newer bands.

 

18 minutes ago, Saishu said:

Especially considering the fans think that both bands are totally not ripping anyone else off. 

This is an interesting issue as well. I perceive a lot of denial among some fanbases when it comes to the acknowledging  of influences from other bands and when it comes to technical limitations. You have copies of copies of copies being acclaimed "The only OGs of VK" and every mic-cupper inhaling dude becoming the best vocalist in the world. It's pretty freaky.

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At some point it's just just a matter of persons trying to obtain acknowledging of others for the things they love. Also, consider that this is a central issue specially within teenage years (I'm  sure 90% of the fanbase we are taking about are teenage and young adults), a period of life where happens a deep reconstruction of oneself's identity. Yet vk is far from being a mainstream scene, so the amount of said acknowledging you can take from being enthusiastic about it is perhaps null. And also you really can't wait from them to understand, for example, the recalling aspects of same bands with, for example, Kuroyume. In my own experience, it took me almost ten years and a deep understanding of musical theory to actually come to realize the specific criteria and values of the scene in terms of music, lyrics and performance, and the system of genealogy relations between certain artists, and so on. But before then... I must say I was a rabid 2009 AN Cafe fan lol

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This "feud" thing in music confirms how little comprehension people has of music in general... for example I read that people are pissed because Dimlim's singer uses clear notes, claiming that he is copying Kyo, as if only him can sing such in a way... there's a BIG difference between SIMILARITY and RIP-OFF! But in general the fact that people goes out because they hear something "belonging" to previous band is so boring, because music is free expression and we can choose whether liking it or not, that's it. I think there's so much useless drama about that...

Edited by Ada Suilen

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Obviously there are a ton of factors here, but I honestly wonder how much music these people listen to outside of DEG and Gazette. There’s also the question of when did they get into this, because I know when I first started out with Gackt, Malice Mizer, and DEG, I thought everything else was inferior. It’s not that the music was better than what I had been listening to, it was just different. It sounded new. 

 

We know the average VK fan can often be blinded by adoration, but goddamn are you really ACTUALLY listening to the music itself when you claim you like every song your favorite band has written?

 

I’ve only been on this forum for a few years, but it’s nice to be able to have real discussions without having to pussyfoot around giving criticism. I don’t know if you guys managed to weed out all the toxic trash over the years, but I appreciate the VK safe space. 

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Um... I've watched my fair share of deg YouTube videos and reading comments is my fav part but i don't really remember ever coming across any comments section war between gazette and deg fan (though I've come across tons of 'Sadie and deg fans Fights')

Edited by FOSCOR70

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2 hours ago, FOSCOR70 said:

Um... I've watched my fair share of deg YouTube videos and reading comments is my fav part but i don't really remember ever coming across any comments section war between gazette and deg fan (though I've come across tons of 'Sadie and deg fans Fights')

Reaction videos are typically where this happens. 

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The rivalry only exists in the western fanbase as far as I know. In Japan, The Gazette are firmly viewed as a kouhai band to Dir en grey, and they treat each other as such, despite that Gazette is, as far as I understand it, a bigger commercial success at the moment. Dir en grey was at their peak of popularity in Japan when Gazette started and it only makes sense that they took inspiration, just like Dir did with the peak acts of its era. five years is a long time in the late 90s - early 2000s in Visual Kei.

 

Dir en grey fans in Japan had short-lived rivalries with Pierrot fans, and also with La'Mule fans for a certain period of time, the second of which due to some kind of drama between the hardcore fans regarding attacking each other etc. I don't remember the exact details at the moment. I don't think the band members themselves had any animosity in either case though, although I did get some glances from Kon (La'Mule singer) when I saw him live last year and wore a Dir en grey shirt, heh.

 

When it comes to Gazette I think it's simply the case that both bands became large roughly around the same time in the west with the big "boom" in 2006-2007, they competed for a similar demographic and had a similar style, and since teenagers love to pick sides and create ever smaller groups within already small groups, it was probably easy to force people to identify with either or. I know that as a Dir en grey fan first and foremost, for a long period it was among many of my acquaintances viewed as unacceptable to be anything more than a casual listener of Gazette. Being equally fans of both bands would never happen as you would be fostered into this group mentality from others based on whichever band happened to catch your fancy first.

Thankfully, I haven't seen this in many years among people I associate with, but it could be because I no longer am in touch with the youngest generation of fans, and all of us oldies have matured past that stage.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Ada Suilen said:

This "feud" thing in music confirms how little comprehension people has of music in general... for example I read that people are pissed because Dimlim's singer uses clear notes, claiming that he is copying Kyo, as if only him can sing such in a way... there's a BIG difference between SIMILARITY and RIP-OFF! But in general the fact that people goes out because they hear something "belonging" to previous band is so boring, because music is free expression and we can choose whether liking it or not, that's it. I think there's so much useless drama about that...

 I agree 100% with the first part of what you said but then you accidentally said something that ended up proving your own argument: people don't compare Sho to Kyo because he sings "clear notes" (which don't really mean anything to be honest), the comparisions stem for the fact that Sho also alternates between different styles of vocals like Kyo does each particular style (low growls, high screams, the "little kid freaking out" squeals, clean vocals, etc.) Sho does is audibly influenced by Kyo. That's definitely not a rip-off like you said, It's just that some people tend to ignore how each artist is influenced by others due to exaggerated adoration and often hail their favorite artists as "the best" or "the most original at what they do" when it's simply not true. It doesn't mean that Kyo is The True OG when it comes to mixing different styles of vocals in a single song since people like Mike Patton, Jonathan Davis or Serj Tankian have been doing that much earlier than Kyo did - but when it comes to J-rock, I'm pretty sure Kyo is the one who popularized that.

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8 minutes ago, kuyashii said:

 

 I agree 100% with the first part of what you said but then you accidentally said something that ended up proving your own argument: people don't compare Sho to Kyo because he sings "clear notes" (which don't really mean anything to be honest), the comparisions stem for the fact that Sho also alternates between different styles of vocals like Kyo does each particular style (low growls, high screams, the "little kid freaking out" squeals, clean vocals, etc.) Sho does is audibly influenced by Kyo. That's definitely not a rip-off like you said, It's just that some people tend to ignore how each artist is influenced by others due to exaggerated adoration and often hail their favorite artists as "the best" or "the most original at what they do" when it's simply not true. It doesn't mean that Kyo is The True OG when it comes to mixing different styles of vocals in a single song since people like Mike Patton, Jonathan Davis or Serj Tankian have been doing that much earlier than Kyo did - but when it comes to J-rock, I'm pretty sure Kyo is the one who popularized that.

Yeah you're right, at the end it's always a "Kyo Issue" (I like him a lot as vocalist, dont misunderstand me 🙂)

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I’m actually writing a review of Chedoara and I discuss Sho’s vocals a bit. It’s interesting because his harsh vocals are clearly inspired by Kyo, but he takes a different approach with his cleans. And overall, Dimlim just doesn’t remind of DEG outside of a few chaotic riffs here and there. 

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I'm gonna man up and admit one of the comments you're talking about was the one I made on Dimlim's "Aijou ni Tsuki" under the account of Isaac Pedroso (sorry if you want to harass me on social media because disagree, it's not my real name). If I end up sounding like an exaggerated DeG fanboy or an elitist that's definitely not my intention, but there's one thing that truly rubs me off is how people tend to assume that just because they like any artist, it makes said artists immune to any kind of criticism period. It really, really freaks me out to see the extent people go with fanboying those relatively unknown artists who clearly don't really have a grasp of technical stuff when it comes to playing/singing/whatever - and I'm not talking about Dimlim specifically. I never said Dimlim was bad nor anything, it's just funny to see how they were instantly crowned as supreme gods after posting their first song online. You're absolutely free to like them if you want, it's just ridiculous how people claim they are so great and original when pretty much everything they've done was done already - and FFS that's not bad! There isn't really a thing as originality nowadays when it comes to music so what makes artists stand out as musicians is what they make with what they have. I don't know if it's related to the whole "search for self-affirmation" thing but maybe people think some artists have too many fans already and they want to really stand-out and choose to fankid over-the-top-ly over some random rookie band?

 

And I mean, you can probably see that my favorite band is DeG by the fact that they are the band I post the most about here but that doesn't mean I'm not critical of them/aware of their limitations. Kyo stands for everything you shouldn't do as a vocalist when it comes to preserving your voice, their recent output has been very questionable to say the least, and even if I really like the instrumentist bandmembers, they have a lot of limitations you shouldn't overlook and I don't really have any expectations of their upcoming album AT ALL.

 

If there's a couple of things that I agree is that the passive-aggressive approach the Gazette fans take when it comes to facing criticism is annoying and bitchy af. I stopped replying to the thread the moment it became a victimization festival of Gazette fans that took up like 80% of the replies. I also agree that the ultra-edgy, "I'm the only one who's right" thing going on with DeG fans is equally cringy and that kind of attitude only makes people lose their respect for the band (even though I don't consider creating an impression of any artist by their fanbase a very wise idea).

 

And it's not like DeG is immune to the whole overly-attached fankid thing either. Someone on YT just started calling me out because I said Ruki has a better vocal technique than Kyo's - even that Ruki has a considerably smaller range and doesn't do all the stuff Kyo does. So, this person sees that as an attack to their god and savior and then goes all "tumblr girl" argumenting that I'm contradicting myself because it would be impossible for him to have an wide range without any technique - which is something only a person who doesn't understand about singing would say. Curiously, a Gzt fan joined with the old passive-agressivity thing, complaining DeG fans are rude and "if you don't like then go away"because that discussion happened on a Gzt video.

 

TL;DR: You can feel that people with that kind of attitude aren't very knowledgeable about music at all, are mostly young kids in search of affirmation and reproduce the good ole "who isn't with me is against me" thing that happens with most humans.

Edited by kuyashii

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Probably just some petty "who's the leader of the pack??!" stuffs and not more.

Although, iirc, Ruki was like encouraging it back in the day, at least in one of the interview conducted by JaME when they were touring Europe or whatever  during Stacked Rubbish era. Just some simple joke really, like Ruki was asked who's his biggest inspiration or favpurite band or something like that, and he answers DEG but then the writer also adds information than Ruki chuckled afterwards, it is quite harmless imho, but stans might took it differently. :shrug:

 

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6 hours ago, kuyashii said:

I'm gonna man up and admit one of the comments you're talking about was the one I made on Dimlim's "Aijou ni Tsuki" under the account of Isaac Pedroso (sorry if you want to harass me on social media because disagree, it's not my real name). If I end up sounding like an exaggerated DeG fanboy or an elitist that's definitely not my intention, but there's one thing that truly rubs me off is how people tend to assume that just because they like any artist, it makes said artists immune to any kind of criticism period. It really, really freaks me out to see the extent people go with fanboying those relatively unknown artists who clearly don't really have a grasp of technical stuff when it comes to playing/singing/whatever - and I'm not talking about Dimlim specifically. I never said Dimlim was bad nor anything, it's just funny to see how they were instantly crowned as supreme gods after posting their first song online. You're absolutely free to like them if you want, it's just ridiculous how people claim they are so great and original when pretty much everything they've done was done already - and FFS that's not bad! There isn't really a thing as originality nowadays when it comes to music so what makes artists stand out as musicians is what they make with what they have. I don't know if it's related to the whole "search for self-affirmation" thing but maybe people think some artists have too many fans already and they want to really stand-out and choose to fankid over-the-top-ly over some random rookie band?

 

And I mean, you can probably see that my favorite band is DeG by the fact that they are the band I post the most about here but that doesn't mean I'm not critical of them/aware of their limitations. Kyo stands for everything you shouldn't do as a vocalist when it comes to preserving your voice, their recent output has been very questionable to say the least, and even if I really like the instrumentist bandmembers, they have a lot of limitations you shouldn't overlook and I don't really have any expectations of their upcoming album AT ALL.

 

If there's a couple of things that I agree is that the passive-aggressive approach the Gazette fans take when it comes to facing criticism is annoying and bitchy af. I stopped replying to the thread the moment it became a victimization festival of Gazette fans that took up like 80% of the replies. I also agree that the ultra-edgy, "I'm the only one who's right" thing going on with DeG fans is equally cringy and that kind of attitude only makes people lose their respect for the band (even though I don't consider creating an impression of any artist by their fanbase a very wise idea).

 

And it's not like DeG is immune to the whole overly-attached fankid thing either. Someone on YT just started calling me out because I said Ruki has a better vocal technique than Kyo's - even that Ruki has a considerably smaller range and doesn't do all the stuff Kyo does. So, this person sees that as an attack to their god and savior and then goes all "tumblr girl" argumenting that I'm contradicting myself because it would be impossible for him to have an wide range without any technique - which is something only a person who doesn't understand about singing would say. Curiously, a Gzt fan joined with the old passive-agressivity thing, complaining DeG fans are rude and "if you don't like then go away"because that discussion happened on a Gzt video.

 

TL;DR: You can feel that people with that kind of attitude aren't very knowledgeable about music at all, are mostly young kids in search of affirmation and reproduce the good ole "who isn't with me is against me" thing that happens with most humans.

Lol, yeah I was in that thread, and I agreed with you. I guess the Gazette drama was my fault because I used the fans as an example. 

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Consider DeG and gazette an entry point into heavy vk music for teens. Then consider how most teens nowadays are part of a fandom, which involves loyally protecting your band/series/etc against evil haters. I found out recently that in kpop fandom there are fans who create accounts to roleplay as rival groups and leave hate messages and start fights on different social media of the chosen groups. I'll never understand it, maybe it's too much free time as well as wanting really badly to belong somewhere. 

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I don't pay much attention to people bitching at each other about the groups, I'm a fan of both DEG and the Gazette but I know who influenced them and the bands have a common ground in that, members of both bands are die hard X Japan and hide fanboys, not to mention Die's obsession with the band of hide's original right hand best friend Kyo of D'erlanger. Cypher tattoo and all. Fans need to realize arguing amongst themselves is meaningless, the jrockers don't fucking care about what you think and your not the reason they became musicians. They have common interests, the fans need to take notes and sit the fuck down Joe. (reference to a hide concert)

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