BABYMETAL

[DogManX 179]

Oehm. Read my comment? I could add that you asserted I don't like little girls fronting metal, which is not true. If they were sincere, authentic artists (as it is usual in the genre they're appointed to) it would be different. But as such, as mere puppets to a pop idol industry that takes about every decision they ever have to take either in the studio, on stage or in public...no.

[nullmoon 784]

Like you said, Dragonforce meets mainstream pop/reggae. Not really a risk taken.

I'm not a fan of Dragonforce, or reggae for that matter, but Babymetal sound like neither. They have one song (I think?) that has a reggae beat...at parts...so how does this equal one of their main genres?!

Wait a minute...have you listened to music before?! XD

[DogManX 179]

I'm not a fan of Dragonforce, or reggae for that matter, but Babymetal sound like neither. They have one song (I think?) that has a reggae beat...at parts...so how does this equal one of their main genres?!

Wait a minute...have you listened to music before?! XD

 

Yes, actually! My comment was more focused on the mere selection of the composition parts, and his example. Of course I know it's much more powerchord work than Dragonforce, but the soloing comes pretty close to it.

[relentless 254]

Oehm. Read my comment? I could add that you asserted I don't like little girls fronting metal, which is not true. If they were sincere, authentic artists (as it is usual in the genre they're appointed to) it would be different. But as such, as mere puppets to a pop idol industry that takes about every decision they ever have to take either in the studio, on stage or in public...no.

 

 

1. I never asserted such a thing. I recognized that some people may dislike that J-pop singers are fronting a metal band with their singing and dance choreography, which is a complaint that I understand. Though what I disagree with, is this "Metal Purity" argument you keep trying to push:

 

 

"If they were sincere, authentic artists..." (You can't argue the level of "sincerity" that an artist has. This is another buzzword thrown around for weak justification for not liking a band, artist, etc.)

 

 

"But as such, as mere puppets to a pop idol industry..." (you also can't argue this because you have no clue on the inner workings of BABYMETAL. The only thing we can definitively state, is that the singers did not know what Metal was until the band formed. But =/= they are "mere puppets to a pop idol industry". This is another phrase thrown around without anything backing it up. Facts would be nice.)

 

 

 

2. Your argument is based off of baseless assumptions that can not be definitively argued because you, nor I, have the resources to do so. If you want to be irrational and are trying to justify your dislike for them, there's nothing I can do about that, and I don't inherently care; but trying to make an argument out of it is entirely foolish. You don't know what goes on with the band, and you are relying on terms that have 0 meaning when actually inspected ("puppets", "authentic artists", "famewhoring", etc.).

 

 

Further, your lack of musical understanding (in regards to Pop: something that even "idiots" can write -- which are your words), discredits everything you've said up to this point. And just to make things a bit clearer, for clarification purposes, there is an umbrella term called "Popular Music" (i.e., Pop) which Metal falls under, and is not exempt from reliance on Marketability that the "famewhores" and "puppets" supposedly latch onto:

 

 

 

 

"Popular music belongs to any of a number of musical genres "having wide appeal"^[1][2] and is typically distributed to large audiences through the music industry. It stands in contrast to both art music^[3][4][5] and traditional music, which are typically disseminated academically or orally to smaller, local audiences."

[nekkichi 6042]

metal should break chains and free minds [2]

 

omg @ people fighting over this no1curr label puppet band for real

Just look at the PonPonPon video. It's essencially the same. The more crazy the more attention it will get. It is predictable, and it's not like there are Sigh-like avantgarde melodies in BABYMETAL. Like you said, Dragonforce meets mainstream pop/reggae. Not really a risk taken.

please don't drag kyary into this, bb. ponponpon is flawless in comparison.

[DogManX 179]

Phew. You're terribly naive. But go on living in your fantasy world of independent pop idols (at the age of 11-16) (female) (in JAPAN).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_idol

 

This is a broad description, but it brings with it serious doubts about anything I said being entirely wrong. I know that wasn't your intention and you made good clarifications, but sadly the idol culture in japan is way more transparent than one j-pop fan would wish it to be.

 

You can also take the numerous scandal reports into account, proving at least that these idols are forced to uphold an illusion, far from being upright or authentic--and thus being puppets of an industry in fact. So you see..my points are not as groundless as you perceive them. I may have stepped into too much detail on my assertions, but no one familiar with idol culture would seriously doubt what I said. And it doesn't help the fact that still MY perception on the matter is that this kind of music doesn't uphold the spirit of metal. Call it purified, call it what you want. This is my view on it and I made it clear from my 1st comment on. And as I said, if you seriously have the guts to compare pop idol machinery with general/regular metal management, then there is no ground for discussion.

 

As to your pop music description..gosh you're a smartass. Creating an issue where there isn't one.  I know full well what falls under the category of "pop", but you're not going to win any prize if you refer to rock or metal acts generally as "pop". Likewise no one would think of anything else than pop music when I say pop music.

[relentless 254]

Phew. You're terribly naive. But go on living in your fantasy world of independent pop idols (at the age of 11-16) (female) (in JAPAN).

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_idol

 

This is a broad description, but it brings with it serious doubts about anything I said being entirely wrong. I know that wasn't your intention and you made good clarifications, but sadly the idol culture in japan is way more transparent than one j-pop fan would wish it to be.

 

You can also take the numerous scandal reports into account, proving at least that these idols are forced to uphold an illusion, far from being upright or authentic--and thus being puppets of an industry in fact. So you see..my points are not as groundless as you perceive them. I may have stepped into too much detail on my assertions, but no one familiar with idol culture would seriously doubt what I said. And it doesn't help the fact that still MY perception on the matter is that this kind of music doesn't uphold the spirit of metal. Call it purified, call it what you want. This is my view on it and I made it clear from my 1st comment on. And as I said, if you seriously have the guts to compare pop idol machinery with general/regular metal management, then there is no ground for discussion.

 

As to your pop music description..gosh you're a smartass. Creating an issue where there isn't one.  I know full well what falls under the category of "pop", but you're not going to win any prize if you refer to rock or metal acts generally as "pop". Likewise no one would think of anything else than pop music when I say pop music.

 

 

There are quite a few problems here:

 

 

1. "This is a broad description, but it brings with it serious doubts about anything I said being entirely wrong" - This does not logically follow in regards to your previous comment. Now you're arguing about the Japanese Idol Culture and its existence, where as previously you were making arguments about "sincere", "authentic", and "famewhoring" artists (buzzwords that have 0 meaning when in consideration of their musical context -- i.e. the music they're making). I can see what you're trying to do; but it doesn't follow because there is a disconnect between the two points you're trying to tie together. Being an Idol =/= someone isn't sincere about what they're doing (remember: The Music Industry is a business at the end of the day, and these are people that WANT to get into this business, regardless of its musical merits, or lack thereof). "Sincerity" is not only a buzzword in this context; but it involves someone's motives which you have no clue of. Thus, that can't be argued. Second, notice the lack of citation in the long description regarding Japanese Idol Culture. Are we to accept a source for its lack of citation? To do so would be fallacious, but what's worse is:

 

 

2. "You can also take the numerous scandal reports into account..." No, you can't, because said information is incredibly suspect, and based off of internet rumors that (I'm guessing) are found on Tumblr, MH, and various other sites where gossip on this topic is readily available. Do we have certainty that ALL of this is true? No. We don't even have a guarantee that half of it is true. The problem with making assertions from such sources, is that they tend not to hold up. Though, I'm not willing to go to the extreme to disregard ALL of it, because that oddly enough, supports what I said from the start:

 

 

3. You're making arguments based on an image, and not based on the merits of the music itself. I find it appalling that someone who stresses "authentic" music and artists is so hung-up on the image a band portrays, and not the very music that they make. You're upset that it infringes on your belief of what "true" metal is, when you don't even bother to talk about the music and what "true metal" is in the first place. Instead, you glossed over it in one sentence and called it "fine" -- if I recall correctly. This is the part of your argument you're failing to unite. You are trying to discredit BABYMETAL as artists without touching their music. Instead, you are critiquing their image based on what you think you know from Internet Articles and rumors, and trying to draw it into a musical context of "well, this is bad Metal, because it's not AUTHENTIC". If we are to even BEGIN talking about something being "authentic" or not, then you will have to develop heavily-scrutinized criteria to begin the conversation. If you can define this, we can perhaps go from there.

 

 

Sadly, when discussing music and its merits, the music needs to be discussed, not the "image" and stage gimmick of a band. But, you are unable to do so, so you attempt to make this idealized (and heavily Romanticized) argument that there is this magical (yet to be defined by you) difference between a "true" artist and an "inauthentic" one. Are Japanese Idols as skilled as someone who is a professional Opera singer? No (as the Wiki page mentions these are inexperienced kids being signed); but the lack of experience =/= a lack of authenticity, or a lack of sincerity. After all, Japanese Idols fall under their own niche of appreciation.

 

 

4. "As to your pop music description..gosh you're a smartass. Creating an issue where there isn't one." You seem to have missed the point I was making. You are arguing that BABYMETAL are not authentic because of the whole list of buzzwords you have mentioned up to this point. The problem is, by your logic, if you take those words ("famewhoring, pop idol machinery, sincere, authentic artists, puppets, sellout, and fabricated") you can just as easily slap that onto Metal, another Popular genre, that revolves around Marketability, and the music industry (i.e. labels) for distribution, to make a similar point that it's not "authentic" music when in consideration of Art Music. The reason why I refuse to do so, is because not only is that argument just as baseless; but it doesn't logically follow.

 

 

 

 

tl;dr: Attaching your problem with an image of a band to their music is detrimental, and irrational, because it says nothing about the music even though it's trying to make a critique on it as a whole. You have Romanticized ideals as to what music "should" be (though music should never be anything other than "art for art's sake"), and are unable to discuss the merits of the music to unite and better define your argument. Don't like the band? Fine, I don't either; but don't let your terrible idea as to what makes music "authentic" try to make comments on the music that you are unable to argue against (based on your inability to write a Pop composition).

 

 

 

 

"there is more in music than famewhoring and pure instrumentals...."

 

JS Bach would be rolling in his grave right now.

[DogManX 179]

As I said, my case is closed. Go stress someone else's nerves. I ain't got no time for either your denial or your self-imposed standards on how music has to be discussed. You got your standards, I got mine. For you music is important, for me the artist who does it. That's how simple it is. And if the artist gets his material, choreo etc. written by sellout buisnessmen, then it is not authentic. Like in this case. It's that easy to understand. It can still be good music, but I can't take it or the artist serious. And in metal, that's a big thing for me. Case fucking closed

[relentless 254]

I ain't got no time for either your denial or your self-imposed standards on how music has to be discussed.

 

 

Self-imposed standards, huh? I'm not the one going into a band appreciation thread and raving about how bad their music is. This was a good discussion though, take care.

[Bear 1817]

It was a very good discussion (as a reader). In fact, it was one of the most interesting music duscussions I've seen on this forum for a long while.

[bonsaijodelfisch 328]

...written by sellout buisnessmen...

 

*facepalm*

 

yeah the discussion had a few points, but it's like running against a stone wall of unfounded misconceptions which just forces repetition, because a reasonable answers has yet to be given.

 

how would me writing a song/choreo/concept, but not performing it myself lessen my "authenticity"?

how does Leonard Bernstein performing a symphony by L.v.Beethoven lessen his "authenticity"? (or beethovens for that matter...)

do we all now get our "artist"-cards revoked?

 

what the hell do you mean with authenticity anyways and how is it in any way related to music? where do you get the impression that either the idols or the songwriters/producers are it not?

 

from the very get go they made clear that the songs where written/produced by some full-fledged metal producers (that damn well know their shit) and performed by idols who didn't know anything about metal in the first place but now probably have the time of their lives performing for huge crowds all over the world. 

 

going by the definition of

Fake = Pretending sth you're not

this is pretty much the very opposite of "fake" and in-authentic.

 

fun-fact: a quality indicator for a non-sensical argument is usually the phrase "This is not [genre]"

 

EDIT: and before you'll go with "i clearly stated TO ME" again and the usual "just MY opinion" stuffs, nobody would say anything if you'd just posted "meh i don't like'em, i like sweat, beards and tattooes better", but randomly throwing buzzword accusations (famewhores, sellouts, puppets, businessmen, pop-idiots etc.) revokes your freedom of personal opinion and make it a general case

[Youko_o 51]

Getting back to discussion: I don't like them most because of the way they're doing "METAL", and not just random music. I don't care much for pop music and other genres, so pop artists can do whatever they want, it's a totally commercial genre anyway. Just take a look on all the huge world metal scene, the big bangs, the history of metal, the origins. BABYMETAL is lame when trying to be metal. Their sound is metal, ok. There are talented artists behind it, ok. But there isn't a group of people trying to make metal because they love music, they just want to sell. Metal isn't about selling. Ok, metal bands still have to sell their stuff to survive in music industry, this is no mistery. But the actual metal bands are not only about this. While all I see in BABYMETAL is a selling machine. If a band is trying to play metal but the members don't write their own stuff and just want the money, they're not metal. I hope I made my point clear in what I don't like about BABYMETAL. I know I maybe said something that was already discussed on this topic, but I am just saying what I think (even if nobody cares. Although I think someone will quote me and try to convince me the opposite)

[CaRaN 212]

The fact is that these bitches are killing it, so we should forget all the haters and enjoy our fake music produced by sellout businessmen and performed by fame whore puppets

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSCRT7sDyWA 

[Youko_o 51]

Yes, do it. Forget the haters. Don't care about them. Don't care to my opinion, just listen to it if you like. (I'm not being ironical)

[Youko_o 51]

Oh wait. I was called a hater? But I don't hate them, just don't like the way their music is produced LOL I think haters are those guys who are all "this is totally crap, no one should ever listen to this, who listens to this is stupid" and this is not what I'm saying. 

[bonsaijodelfisch 328]

Oh wait. I was called a hater? But I don't hate them, just don't like the way their music is produced LOL I think haters are those guys who are all "this is totally crap, no one should ever listen to this, who listens to this is stupid" and this is not what I'm saying. 

it's fine, nobody get's called a hater in honesty here (you did call them lame tho )

 

let me just ask you this,

as you've already stated the music is more or less fine for you (besides vocals, but let's assume they'd be ok too), why would you let some esotheric, semi-religious preconceptions about what is "true" and what is "false" and how some arbitrary label "should" or "shouldn't" be take that away from you?

or let it force you to more or less baselessly judge some honest fun of participating musicians, performers and recipients?

[Youko_o 51]

Right now the logical part of my mind and the metal fan part are discussing if I should try and accept BABYMETAL or still say they are not really metal. There are no rules for making any kind of music, but I still don't feel comfortable with BABYMETAL way of making music cause it's not what metal bands have been doing through decades. It's not the way metal always been. I don't know dude, I'm kinda confuse now XD

[Traxan 148]

Well the girls came, saw, and kicked ass in LA last night. Sold out crowd of 1200. The A/C went out during the show and the girls sweated like pigs on stage. THey were all badly dehydrated after the show but despite reports of hospitalization, none of them were.

 

Review:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/music/posts/la-et-ms-babymetal-fonda-20140728-story.html

[Nuclearnemo 5]

The issue that people have with babymetal is mainly that it is outside of there comfort zone. "Real" metalheads (as they call themselfs) swere on the way metal is now with major bands like metallica as well as Iron Maiden. Babymetal is something that comes within there "sacred" ground and most of them can't accept it. It all boils down to not being able to accept change...accept something new. I think most people here will have heard comments about VK as well ("Dudes who dress up like girls? How can you like that?" something among those lines). This is all part of human nature. If something is outside of your comfort zone you will generally dislike it.

 

To be honest I rather go to a concert of babymetal then lets say...dragonforce (saw them last year on a festival....one of the worst live performences i saw..xD).

 

The thing about them being produced...well...the music industry is a business to make money. If you find a new product that sells well...why not use it. The talk about soul and what not...i can understand it, but that just not how the music industry works. If you can write a song like that and become famous, go for it! But most songs (Pop, hiphop, trance even rock) are produced and written by somebody else. There are only a few real singer songwriters out there the rest is all written by either one member of the band or even by a producer. But does people dislike that kind of music because of that? No. So i don't really see the problem of this being to "produced".

[RoseOfHizaki 131]

Fuck all the haters - I like this group.

[Wicked Teletubby 528]

BABYMETAL will return to the UK and USA in November.

 

2014.11.04 - Hammerstein Ballroom, New York, USA.

2014.11.08 - O2 Academy Brixton, London, UK.

[RoseOfHizaki 131]

Awwwww Yissssss, I may actually go out and see them

[Wicked Teletubby 528]

pre-sale VIP tickets for an NYC show are now sold out.

[beni 2149]

Happy they're coming over for all the fans again, but the only thing that upsets me is how people will only focus on one particular group, even if they are different for whatever reason. I actually listen to BABYMETAL at times, and I enjoy it, and I think it is unique because it's a new, fresh idea, mixing two genres together. I know laods of bands do this but damn, is this rather special haha. But what I'm trying to get at is, I have a few friends who have heard and even listen to BABYMETAL, but that's it. Nothing else. They won't even try any of the other sub groups of the cute girl groups in Japan, or try the harder sounding metal groups we all love. Not being a hater at all, just me letting of some thoughts. It just upsets me when groups get the spotlight when others who try just as hard or even harder don't get as much recognised. But I guess it happens all the time.

Anyway, most have already hit the nail on the head with great explanations about their popularity, I just wanted a say too, they're doing very well anyway. Oh and, RoseOfHizaki, and anyone else, have a fabulous time seeing them! 

[relentless 254]

BABYMETAL has the benefit of being a trend right now. Very few (if any) VK-related acts exploded in popularity on YouTube because of their gimmick, and right now BABYMETAL are taking advantage of that fact.