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following seikun's impeccable logic all the bangyas in vk are actually secretly lesbian because there's absolutely no reason why straight girls would be attracted to 'feminine' bandmen while we're on this topic, i also don't get: - why there's still the weird division dictating that guys must be into vk as "ongen-gyao" who only collect cds, and girls only go to lives to swoon over hot bandmen - why the former is somehow usually conceived as more superior to the latter.... almost every guy who's an armchair connoisseur of vk i've encountered exudes the insufferable air of making themselves sound like consumers of vk who are more sophisticated than "those bangyas over there" aka the "necessary evil" that keeps the scene afloat - why the two are even mutually exclusive in the first place, as if being into the bandmen themselves somehow diminishes or effaces one's ability to appreciate/talk about music intelligently ...and i can go on. basically i feel that people (mostly guys, but also girls who are concerned with being viewed a certain way) who actually have the money to spare AND want to participate are given pause because of these problematic assumptions. i've been saizen for bands (mostly very small) and have no problems with the girls or the bandmen themselves so i can't help thinking a lot of these strange ideas are self-imposed. people should just enjoy the scene in whatever way they want (yes, even if you're a guy who go to lives to fantasize about bandmen - what's wrong with that??), instead of losing sleep over what the bangyas in the same row are potentially gossiping about you.

I think that this situation sort of showcases the discrepancy between the western and Japanese fandom, in some ways. We in the west have sort of built up our own subculture surrounding VK that isn't the same as it is in Japan. In Japan, attending VK lives can have connotations that a lot of guys would want to avoid, the informal rules surrounding the lives can also make the shows less enjoyable to men too, as in the whole staying put in your spot, allowing time and space for the girls to fix their hair between each headbang and stuff like that. The western VK fandom treats it more like any other alternative subculture whereas I feel like in Japan it has unhealthy connections with the host ideals. I went to a VK bar in Tokyo and talked to the bartender and he said that the regular girls scared away other customers on the weekends by refusing to let him serve others, since they "paid for his company" by buying drinks, and they would demand from him to play only the one band they listen to the entire night. I think for a lot of guys who are into VK, most Japanese men who are into VK are CD-only by the way, as in they don't attend the shows but just buy the music from stores and might occasionally show up to onemans and stand in the back, this doesn't create a fun atmosphere since they would prefer to just hang about and talk shit about music and listen to a dozen different bands. I realize that the bangya culture is what keeps the bands afloat, but I think it's also this culture that sort of kills the fun for a lot of guys who enjoy the music and enjoy the scene aesthetically but isn't just invested in one band and wants to enjoy some host fantasy with them. And this is why guys have a larger part in the western fandom because ours really isn't connected much to the Japanese one beyond listening to the same bands. To be fair though, quite a few bands try to remedy this by doing those male only shows, and I think that's an awesome thing, although I wish it weren't necessary.

I don't think it's a clear cut division as much as it's a generalization to make the point easier. There's plenty of bangya who are into many bands and have a wide knowledge of the scene, and there are plenty of guys who go to the lives and enjoy them despite not always feeling like circumstances are ideal (I've attended upwards of 100 VK shows, for example.) It's just that the majority fall into the stereotypes, whether it's self-imposed or formed by the strong consensus culture of Japan I don't know, but once something gets viewed in the public eye as being geared towards a specific audience, the threshold to dare to break that mold gets much higher, especially in a country like Japan where this is strongly discouraged in general. In an ideal world people wouldn't care, like you say, but we all know that's not how group psychology works. Also, I think it's pretty normal that people who invest a lot of time and money into something, whether accidentally or not, look down on those who settle for less, but fandom elitism is another topic and far from exclusive to the guys either - it goes both ways, it's just that both groups measure dedication by different scales. I know bangya who look down on girls who attend lives of other bands, for example, because it's seen as "treason" towards their main act. Or look down on the fanboys for not supporting the bands at shows more. Just like I know guys who look down on those who don't know and love that one band that was around for three weeks in '93. It's problematic for sure but I think delving deeper into it is taking the thread off topic? If people want to make another thread to discuss the toxic elements of bangya culture or fandom elitism, I'd be all for it, and I think it'd be interesting topics to discuss in a wider sense, but let's try to keep it relevant to the topic of male fans in the VK scene here. @KomorebiI think it's pretty easy to spot when someone actually cares about the music and when someone is only there to drool at the band. All it takes is a short conversation on the topic of the bands music. And it's not mutually exclusive at all. I have plenty of female friends who can do both, and as long as I can participate in the discussions about the music and they keep the discussions about the bandmens physique with ones that are interested, I'm all good.

my friends don't feed into the ignorant gay comments, LOL save it for another thread because we all know the answer to why that is a stupid argument as for why some band throw men only lives, it because the atmosphere for some bands is radically different between their male and female fans. i think this applies a lot for bands who are on the cusp of visual, so women's only lives might have more people engaging in certain furitsuke with a more "respectful" atmosphere whereas the mens lives are probably set up to be more wild, unhinged, "western style" live experiences. This is pretty similar to how gender is portrayed in the scene, with gyao tending to be more there to have fun rather than closely following typical gya conventions (worrying about how pretty their dresses are for their fav guitarist at kamite to see them from 4th row). On the flipside, some bands with male fans (check any DEG live report) can grind female fans (and even some dudes) the wrong way.

kaya WHO #karmaqueenofgays

lmao, right! as a matter of fact, it was lycaon x avelcain twoman boys only (https://www.last.fm/event/3913666+『-BOY’Z+ONLY-男の中の男!!!!!!』) live now that I think of it. It was very fun and we were a total of 20~guys in the audience. it was very intense though. I remember at one point the vocalist of Lycaon grabbing a guys head and pushing it against his crotch for a good 3~ minutes or so while singing. funny thing though, my friend also told me that it is not unheard of for girls to try and dress up as boys and get in to boys only lives because there's less people and it's more intimate. @lichtlune I've never attended a non-vk gig in japan (except for a band I saw in a jazzbar in setagaya-ku, we were 3 ppl in total lmao), but a friend of mine saw the band with wolf heads (man with a mission?) and according to him it was the same as seeing any other western band in the west.

vistlip will release their new single "It" on 2017/11/18, and another single (title tba) on 2017/12/06. They will release their live DVD in 2018/01.

魅裟 (missa) (solo project of 魔琴 (makoto) (Insanity Injection)) will release 3 digital collab singles on November 3. In these releases, he will be collaborating with 3 vocalists for each single. "哀絶綺譚" (Aizetsu kitan) feat. 祈狂 (kikyo) (La'veil Mizeria) "お遊女帖" (o yūjo jō) feat. 浩太 (kouta) (ex-JokArt au Legal) "東京NEO BUSHIISM" (tokyo NEO BUSHIISM) feat. MI (ZRAYD).

**We're mainly discussing men and visual kei, not the #NoFatsNoFems movement. Stay on topic guys. 👌

Versailles is one of the bands that does male-only lives. At first it seemed like the main reason was to promote a welcoming atmosphere for male fans too, so they didn’t feel excluded. It worked, and I think their fandom may have ended up being at least 30 to 40% male. They continued the tradition of male- and female-only lives each year, and I think part of it is like emmy said, because of the atmosphere. Some of the male fans at Versailles lives were pretty rough, and when they got heated up during the concert it was scary for us female fans. It’s not fun when a guy that weighs 50% more than you takes a running flying dive right into you. You’d think it would be common sense to go easy when you’re jumping against someone who’s a lot smaller, but it took repeated blog posts from Hizaki asking the male fans to be gentle to the girls before it became less bad. Anyway, from what I’ve heard, the male-only lives are pretty rough, and it sounds like a lot of guys are happy to have the opportunity to roughhouse and go wild on a level playing field with teammates who can take it. And when it’s a girls-only live, it’s really nice to be able to see easily and feel physically safe.

in 2014 i saw Royz (for their 7hrs live) in beppu & Mejibray in nagoya - Royz's audience was like 10% male but w/ the exception of i think one dude all the other guys who showed up went as fancy w/ their clothes/hairmake as any young indiez band's members look. Some gya also dressed up that much & some didn't but for the guys in particular, seems like everyone who went looked unmistakably 'into vkei' enough that they looked like members mid-photoshoot from another band. Meji's show was a lot more balanced (maybe bc it was a more normal show not in a tiny city?) and i'd guess like 70% girls 30% guys. people still dressed up but it was a smaller percent of the audience that did that i think. Aside from the gender ratio & the maybe 30% of the fans that went full vk with their look, i feel like the audience of that meji show would be a lot easier to confuse w/ the crowd at a punk or metal, non-vk show. I & my two friends were (i'm pretty sure) the only foreigners at the Royz show (of ~400 people); there were maybe 15-20 overseas girls at Meji's show (decently full ELL if that makes for a # for reference to anybody), but to the best of my knowledge i was the only foreign guy at either. Oh, maybe worth noting i went to see Sadie's instore/CD-signing at Tower Shinjuku & off the top of my head it was a pretty similar ratio to Meji, maybe a bit less even though? & looked like the ages of people had a good deal more in their late 20s / early 30s. Meji's live seemed like mostly people in their 20s, Royz's felt similar but younger overall. Out of the shows i saw here at cons (Naitomea, Meteoroid, Pentagon), seemed 50/50 as far as i could tell. but at The GazettE's oneman (as in, no anime-con attached) that was almost as 90/10 girls to guys as the Royz show. i even saw like at least three sets of a teenager who'd brought along their clearly uninterested parents. I also showed up to Revine & Dixdriver's instores just bc they were near my hostel & why the hell not if i'm already in Japan, and i was definitely the only guy & the only foreigner at both. I'm sure i looked even more out of place than i felt.

Are you a gay man? Do you know gay guys? Because you sure are generalizing things based on your subjective "experience". And that whole "feminine men are not wanted by gay guys" thing falls apart even when you take it to reverse the orientation. If all gay and bi men only like men who are stereotypically masculine how come straight and bisexual women who are also into men can be attracted to androgynous and feminine guys? By your logic absolutely no one would be attracted to fem guys. And we all know that's not true. Also go ask some of the gay guys here on MH if they find bandmembers hot. I am sure you will some crushing answers.

I'm a straight man and I only love bands w the sexiest boys, on god I dunno why. im rly w it but idk y im rly w it

ahhh, man let's be honest. The idea of visual-kei is to sell a perfect image of somebody that doesn't exist. Same with all of the pop-idols. This is an industry, first of all, music comes secondary. We have a target audience of 18-year old Japanese girls, most likely obsessed with androgynous male image and who read a lot of josei and shojo manga.. They are not gonna buy music in general - they don't give a shit about that. What you can sell to them is an image. as it was once put: "No, they’re sexy, but they don’t exist in the same universe as the fans. They don’t have chlamidya, they don’t worry about child support payments, they don’t have girlfriends or baby-mamas. They don’t have a stinky van. The fans don’t want to think about that! They want a dream, (not a man or a woman), they want a higher being, a look out of a fairy-tale. That’s why we do all the makeup and hair. It’s not about the guitars or playing A-flat in a Lydian mode." In case you didn't notice - it's the same thing with anime. It will always cater to the male audience, because we tend/are willing to spend whatever money we have on our obsession - be it motorbykes or fuck-pillows. And if you take socially awkward males who had no success with women and life in general, and sell them over-sexualized image and play on their instincts - oh boy, you get a really good chunk of revenue. So you can see the similarities with the visual-kei approach here. So, the visual-kei's target audience just does the same - spending whatever they have on their obsession. The difference is that visual-kei found its small (really small) niche of fans who are ready to do that. If we take population in general - it will not work. But it just takes whatever mental image/ideal the fans have, wrap it in a nice way, add a little bit of consumer psychology/evolutionary psychology and neurobiology (yes, it's the thing, I highly recommend reading material on how the last two infuence what we buy and how much we are willing to spend) - and you get your revenue =) Hence, we have a situation, that mostly females go to visual-kei gigs (because it was created for them), mostly (hungry/semi-virgin) males go for female pop-idols' gigs (because it was created for them), and etc. Which is fine. It's all about money, not the art.

- guitar Meku ( ex Chemical Pictures, aim,GALEYD) - guitar Anzi (ex Matenrou Opera) - bass SHUSE (ex La'cryma Christi, bassit for the band †я i ￠к and bassist support for Acid Black Cherry) - drums Yuki (ex Jupiter, Versailles drummer) And he also have two another drummer support Kei Yamazaki and Shin Watanabe

There is nothing I hate more than men complaining/commenting about my VK related posts on MY own social media. Or any other girl's by that matter. Does it hurt your ego that we talk about prettier men? Do you feel intellectually superior for "only following them for the music"? Does it affect your life if we want to discuss a member's attitude on their twitter or a hairstyle after we are done discussing their skills? Do you feel your manliness questioned if you happen to be seen discussing such frivolities with female fans? We don't go around complaining about men's obsession with cars or sports and we don't ask them to stop talking about basketball because it annoys us.

I agree. And I've encountered all kinds of fans from both genres. But both the assumption that "female = only in it for the looks" and the usual "go fangirl somewhere else" from men really pisses me off. And I also wonder if it's one of the reason male fans alienate themselves from the scene since they don't want to be seen as "shallow" by their peers. Especially in a country like Japan where what people think and say of you is a pretty big deal.

Couldn't be more wrong. Otherwise please explain drag culture and femme gay men then? Gay community are very vast tbh.

LMAO for real? I've seen girls give some pretty interesting insights about the musical aspect and guys fanboying all over Mana's "perfection".

The majority of the japanese fans are indeed girls/women, that being said - there still exists male fans. They're called ギャ男 (gyao, slang for bangya + boy). I have some japanese gyao friends who I've been to lives with and it's usually very fun. Of course it all depends on the band as well, I've never seen nokubura live but from what I've heard they have a big male audience for a vk band (probably because of their heavy music), when I attended a Avelcain boys only live one of my gyao friends told me most guys there was gay (he's gay himself as well), and for some reason I think that's the case a lot of the time. Also the fact that boys only live exists proves that there is indeed male fans. But to answer your question: yes, most japanese men (and women) dislike visual kei. It's a small and niched scene.

So who all listens to Dir en grey? I'm pretty sure everyone has or does. When I was getting into j-rock, I first started off on Dir en grey as well, "-saku-" was the song that caught my attention, back when I thought I was hardcore. I like Dir en grey, but they're definately not my favorite. They did do an amazing live though. What does everyone else think of Dir en grey?

god,the guy on the chair on the right side looks like MiA

When CDJ emails you "Order #: Item Cancelled"

Absolute, complete, and total perfection incarnate

MISSA just by himself is already awesome enough, but with Kikyo and MI? c-c-c-combo!

from my experiences (roughly around 12-15 Vk lives i attended within the 3 times i visited japan) there was ALWAYS at least 1 guy in the crowd - so together including myself it would be 2. the only live i've ever went to was this may at holiday shinjuku with VRZEL, DiSPiИA and a few super duper "no one cares" about bands and at that live i was really the only guy in the crowd. also at DIMLIM's first oneman live it was pretty much 50/50 with male/female audience.

"哀絶綺譚" (Aizetsu kitan) feat. 祈狂 (kikyo) (La'veil Mizeria) YEAAAAHHHHHH

I always feel like it's a sign of... something when a band that used to have nothing but Japanese song titles starts using English. MUCC did this as well.

Agreed. My POV is that of a woman who's been to enough 'regular' concerts to appreciate the unique situation in vkei. What I'm saying is that if you take away this property of vkei, you leave a whole group of people with almost ZERO OPTIONS to enjoy live rock/metal music freely (something most men can do at most rock concerts in the world - including vkei concerts in Europe/America, when those happen) - the fact that they can do it surely can't be a bad thing? Not saying there aren't problems in the scene, but this particular angle is very important in my opinion.

Time to update that "Songs about chainsaws" thread, @The Reverend

Still waiting for the day a "Hizumi to reunite with D'espairsRay" newspops up here

new weave new weave 22 inches

真天地開闢集団-ジグザグ - 糞麺氏ね てんさい。- センパイの彼女 DIMLIM - VARIOUS (limited ed.) チャイルドプレイ - 放課後デスゲーム KRAD - SKELET Sooo happy I could get my hand on a チャイルドプレイ release!

amazing, incredible, genre-reforming, ground-breaking, innovative, brilliant, trailblazing, exceptional, initial'L-overshadowing, marvelous, tremendous, smashinG tbh!!!!

full

A bunch of our classmates (including me) decided to skip today's first class because there wasn't supposed to be anything important there, and the few who actually still went to the class decided to troll us a bit... They told us we'd been given an assignment to write a 4-page essay and return it before 3pm, and they even went as far as editing a whole pdf file where this "assignment" and all its details and instructions were given. Goddamn we all fell for it and started panicking. (no one seriously questioned it because one of our teachers actually did something like this a few days ago, suddenly giving us only a few hours to write a 4-page essay and everyone got super mad about it...) So when they finally revealed they had just been trolling us and there were really no essays or anything everyone got pretty mad at them at first but just laughed in the end. It was honestly really impressive how good they got us. I don't think I'll ever trust anything they say anymore though...

This. I went to see exist trace recently and 90% of the fans were male In Chile i'd say it's about 70% female 30% male for VK bands with cute members (this depends a lot on the band though), a more even ratio for bands with heavier music/90's and early 2000's bands and probably 60% male and 40% female for non-visual rock bands. I conducted a very informal survey and while women tend to prefer bands with male members, guys listen to both girl bands (exist trace, Scandal, Band Maid etc) and male-bands evenly. Also, the amount of gay male fans isn't really outstanding compared to other genres, most male fans I know and hang out with have girlfriends. This is a topic/social phenomenon that actually interests me a lot.

The band members market themselves for women. It's like the female idol industry, I went to an idol live once and there were only men watching, not a female in sight apart from the group performing. Hot men in make up who seem readily available = mostly female fans Cute girls who seems readily available = pretty much just dude fans Metal/rock/etc. attracts all kinds of people in the west, but these niche groups in Japan (VK & Idols) market themselves in such a way that I think it 'segregates' who can enjoy the group to the fullest. (Lives, taking part in the community, instore events, etc.)

http://batsu.org/viewtopic.php?t=48461 most of the files still work surprisingly...Enjoy Bunch of great stuff here.

i fucking want that tote bag and that shirt

i'm screaming

it's out today and i can't wait for my copy to arrive! in the mean time you can listen to the new version of 最近あなたの暮らしはどう

Okay NoGoD, PROOF yourself that you still have that fire!

Le terme français mademoiselle... abrégé en « Mlle », est un titre de civilité, donné à une jeune fille ou à une femme non mariée... Son utilisation populaire est courante mais est remise en cause, par certains mouvements d’émancipation féminine... Au Québec, il est familièrement réservé aux «très jeunes filles». Après avoir été contesté pour son caractère sexiste, son usage dans les documents officiels est progressivement abandonné dans plusieurs pays, notamment en Suisse depuis 1973, au Québec en 1976, en France et au Luxembourg depuis 2012, ainsi qu'à Bruxelles et en Wallonie depuis 2015. Il est l'équivalent du terme anglais « Miss », en déclin depuis les années 1970 pour les mêmes raisons, et du terme allemand «Fräulein», considéré comme discriminatoire dans les pays germanophones... I just spoiled the upcoming narration piece for y'all I suppose.